Curse

God Apprentice · Mar 19, 2007, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Well then would you explain how it is overpowered?

elektra_lucia · Mar 19, 2007, 10:30 AM // 10:30

God : You should edit the bit in your post about asking people in HA - maybe mention the names of the people you asked in that post as there are people who like to make fun xD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Then it has to be true. I'm sorry I ever questioned you.
Because if a skill has counters or not has nothing to do with if it's overpowered or not.

Ok you have a point here. Glyph of lesser energy is overpowered too.

You care to scroll up? Your post isn't funny and your sarcasm fails because the point was already addressed; however, since you wern't capable (?) of noticing that he did not ask the retarded people in HA but more so the intelligent ones his/her point wasn't that bad =).

Franco Power · Mar 19, 2007, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Typical Ha fotms player mentality, Wards+ Aegis = the ultimate defense,

So you think, a Warder is more useful then a Blinding surge who could also assist with spikes with lightning orb or other skill, who could go E/MO and take draw conditions, or Aegis, even Infuse health.

This is basicly outdated mentality, in 8v8 when IWAY and Rspike was very common, Wards were better then aegis because of OoA in IWAY, and enchantment removal in Rspike, back then people didn't have Blinding surge, and Blinding flash was a very expensive blind to take, since there was a lot more meele in this build, but nowadays, where you your usual team has only 2 meele characters (2 thumpers, 2 sins, 2 dervishes, whatever).
Blinding surge is far superior then wards, keeping 2 characters blinded will take out a lot of pressure from the team, also much better in kill count maps since you can't really camp anywhere, and force the enemy monks to keep casting rc or dismiss (sure only 5 energy, but if you catch them casting it during a spike and they don't have time to prot or infuse, its gg),

Ward vs meele involves camping, it teaches HA monks to suck at gvg, they are used to have their own lil circle where they kite around, that is not kiting, with a flashbot in your team you can kite much better instead of limiting yourself to that lil circle waiting for a thumper to see you out and kd you down,
Ward vs foes, I admit this one is very useful in relic runs and it has its advantages, but still instead of having a bar full of wards,obsidian flame and glyph, the flashbot could take stormdjinn haste and gale and run the relic himself while the meele takes care of bodyblocking the other relic runner, Eles are suppose to be runners, they might be squishier but much better runners.
Last most used ward, Ward of stability, thumpers can't kd if they blinded, and hammer bash is a nasty skill to miss, if a good ele wants to gale you, he would wait until you're out of ward of stability anyway.

Now the elite, most warders usually take Unsteady Ground, shockwave or sandstorm, Sandstorm is nerfed and useless now, if a team takes it that's their waste, UG really isn't a threat, move out of AoE and it's over, shockwave is just a assist spike skill, lightning orb can replace it, it's not as good, but leaves the elite to Blinding surge which takes far more pressure from a team then a warder, ofcourse the only downside to this is, the Blinding surge needs to actually know how to play the game, as a warder just stands there casting wards and waits for his beloved monks to camp with him.
Wards also encourage assassins to use expose defenses, which would be a waste if they were blinded.

Now Aegis vs Blinding, first of Blinding can be removed but so can Aegis. A flash bot could take Aegis in his bar, something like bsurge/ligorb,lightstrike,air atu,glyph,aegis,draw,rez. But Aegis chains really aren't that useful in HA, with all heavy aoe teams and usually only 2 meele in a team, you better off wasting 2 seconds and 15 energy casting something else, then a 50%block for 2 members of the enemy team, Aegis is not overpowered, just overrated in HA. So my question is, why do you want to waste 15 energy, 2 seconds casting a enchantment removal food to help you against 2 assassins or 2 thumpers? HA scrubs bring wards, aegis, channeling etc, really, learn how to monk and you should be fine without those 2. The objective of spamming heals on a ghostly to keep him alive for 4 minuts is over. I hope it comes back as much as the next one but until it does, people could try learning new ways of playing.

Like i said, wards and aegis is probably easier to play then bringing a blindingsurge, and in HA the easy way is always the choice people make, after all fame is fame, but don't think that something is better and blinding surge is a waste of elite, taking a whole bar dedicated to keep monks safe and a character (warder) + aegis chain and then saying Blinding Surge is a waste of skill slot just sounds stupid.

Peace
Franco~

TLLOTS · Mar 19, 2007, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Apprentice

Well then would you explain how it is overpowered?

I believe the main problem with Aegis is that it rewards so much for very little skill.

I don't think anyone would necessarily object to having such a powerful spell available if it actually took more to use than simply, back away from interrupters > Glyph > Aegis.

elektra_lucia · Mar 19, 2007, 11:20 AM // 11:20

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most warders usually take

Point was mute, after that. As most people don't think for themselves.

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the Blinding surge needs to actually know how to play the game,

Not anymore than a monk with aegis. As the monk doesn't just cast aegis.

I would rather run a PD Mes than a blinding serge ele >.>.

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Ward vs meele involves camping, it teaches HA monks to suck at gvg

It doesn't teach HA monks to suck at GVG. An idiotic bad player will be bad at whatever he plays, and remains bad. A clever player will learn to be good at anything.

Quote:

Typical Ha fotms player mentality, Wards+ Aegis = the ultimate defense,

Was this aimed at me, or just general people? As I'll play most things, and try to make my own builds (If I can be bothered); in additon, anyone who has ever played with me knows I hate GOLE with a passion. As people seem to think you can only aegis with GOLE, I bring something else XD.

Someone told me you joined a guild too IWAY. When you thought IWAY was comming back... So, err, starting your post off with ''typical mentality'' seems a bit, mean

. Even if it wasn't directed at me XD.

FredaloT · Mar 19, 2007, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Nerf Aegis please, make it 5 second cast, and 40 energy, it's too imba. Needs nerf PLS IZZY NERF IT. </sarcasm>

If your build has no counters for it, then don't run that build.

If you DO have counters for it and are bitching about it, then get new players who can interupt/remove. Saying Aegis is overpowered may as well be saying like LoD is overpowered, or RC is over powered, or bonds, or anything that can be shutdown. Mesmers ftw? Off the top of my head I can think of about 30 skills that will counter Aegis with ease, so try using one of them keke.

God Apprentice · Mar 19, 2007, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLLOTS

I believe the main problem with Aegis is that it rewards so much for very little skill.

I don't think anyone would necessarily object to having such a powerful spell available if it actually took more to use than simply, back away from interrupters > Glyph > Aegis.

Well if I am casting Aegis I am usually in the open since I may need to Prot someone, and I may not be able to cast an Aegis if I am being trained by a thumper so I may have to kite, and I don't see many sole interupters anyways (Choking Gas,PD)

elektra_lucia · Mar 19, 2007, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Don't talk about getting new players when you have Merlin on your team? He over extends so much not even aegis will work on him. Mmkay thanks, gg.

Franco Power · Mar 19, 2007, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Elektra, last time we played, you got owned and you pm'ed me and said, oh my prot monk sucked, Maybe your prot monk had aegis in his bar and found it useless in a kill count map, and the warder couldn't do much either because there was no where to camp?

Quote:

Point was mute, after that. As most people don't think for themselves.

Exactly my point, most HA players follow their caller like he is a god, and most callers follow other people, and it is true that the most common warder bar is ward vs meele, vs foes, stability, in HA, I don't know what point you are trying to accomplish here.

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Not anymore than a monk with aegis. As the monk doesn't just cast aegis.

I would rather run a PD Mes than a blinding serge ele >.>.

Yes a PD mesmer is very useful now, specially since you have so many ghostlys to interrupt, watch out his casting claiming source !!! /sarcasm

Besides that, a PD mesmer could help interrupting the other teams warder, helping your frontline, a blinding surge helps your backline, so Its all a matter of opinions, I don't see your point here either.

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It doesn't teach HA monks to suck at GVG. An idiotic bad player will be bad at whatever he plays, and remains bad. A clever player will learn to be good at anything.

Yes it does, if a monk is used to have a warder in every team he plays in, and then suddenly comes in a gvg format, where maps are much bigger, he might have to split, and not have his warder with him, he'll fall faster then those lvl 10 minotaurs posted in the screenshot forum.

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Was this aimed at me, or just general people? As I'll play most things, and try to make my own builds (If I can be bothered); in additon, anyone who has ever played with me knows I hate GOLE with a passion. As people seem to think you can only aegis with GOLE, I bring something else XD.

I didn't aim this at anyone, I aimed this at everyone who uses fotms and thinks a warder is the ultimate defense because people used it against IWAY or w/e, I have played with you and against you, I don't care if you like GOLE, GOLE is one of the best, if not the best energy management skills, channeling was only really useful on old altar maps, and it's why it never sees play in GvG or TA, and is completly useless in kill count maps and relic runs.

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Someone told me you joined a guild too IWAY. When you thought IWAY was comming back... So, err, starting your post off with ''typical mentality'' seems a bit, mean . Even if it wasn't directed at me XD.

lol I bet that was Heaven, and I'm sure he didnt mean it in a serious way, and since clearly I seem to know more about this game then you, even not having played in 5 weeks, why would I think IWAY can come back when it's been nerfed to death and there are much better builds out there. And besides, everyone knows I used to guild hop a lot, old news

, instead of talking about me try giving a arguement on why my points were wrong instead.

Peace~

elektra_lucia · Mar 19, 2007, 02:07 PM // 14:07

My posts are edited/deleted, whatever.

Bit about PD mes : sarcasm, learn it.

If I lost vs you - there'd be a reason, I fame farm, play with bad people, etc. Point is, 6 of me, vs 6 of you -I'd win.

Channeling works, people are bad with positioning so they think it does not work. This is why people are bad.

Channeling wasn't just useful on altar maps; therefore, you're a bad monk if you think this.

In reference to your guilds statement. 1) I have bronze trim 2) My last five guilds (excluding one) were all top 50.

The comment of IWAY was no joke, and your point is wrong because you make it sound like channeling is bad, by fact. It's not. It's still good, just people are bad monks...

Thomas.knbk · Mar 19, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Apprentice

Well then would you explain how it is overpowered?

It makes it close to impossible to pressure your team for 13 seconds, unless you have very specific counters to it. That's quite a lot for a non-elite 15 energy skill.
My main beef with Aegis is that switching target, what you would do against 'normal' prots doesn't help. their entire team is protected.
You could argue that Aegis has always been like this, and noone has complained about it before, and that therefore not Aegis but Glyph of Lesser Energy is overpowered, and I sure think it is. (2,5 pips for no attribute investment on a non-elite? cmon, but that's a different thread)
However Aegis too needs a look in my opinion. Anything protecting your entire team is always much stronger than something protecting only a part of your team. Even if it would protect four people or so, you could still switch targets. Now you need to have loads of enchant removal, which makes it imbalanced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FredaloT

If your build has no counters for it, then don't run that build.

Like I said. Lern2counternub!
I'm guessing a skill doing 99999 AoE dmg on a 2 sec cast 1 sec recharge would not be overpowered because you could Dshot it or use Protective Spirit?

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

You care to scroll up? Your post isn't funny and your sarcasm fails because the point was already addressed; however, since you wern't capable (?) of noticing that he did not ask the retarded people in HA but more so the intelligent ones his/her point wasn't that bad =).

2/3 of my post wasn't sarcasm. Only the first line was and you saw that so it didn't fail.

One last thing:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Power

instead of talking about me try giving a arguement on why my points were wrong instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

1) I have bronze trim 2) My last five guilds (excluding one) were all top 50.

That made me lol

Div · Mar 19, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

And here I thought the debate would be over when I said aegis could stop searing flames and that blind can make the monks unable to heal and the attackers to attack the wrong target...why is there still argument?

And I want pretty cape trim elektra ^ ^

elektra_lucia · Mar 19, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Actually, I wasn't trying to brag x.x. Franco talked about his guilds, and then said ''what about you, you've only been in HA guilds'' or something...

I've been PM'd to not use the word edit. So, here goes : My posts got altered in some way shape or form, be it, re-aranged, deleted, whatever. They wern't the same as had the thread been left alone; therefore, my posts no longer make sense as some have been left alone - some inbetween have not

.

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That made me lol

Yeah, you can quote in an order to make one look silly after ones posts have been changed in the manner described above. surprise, you're cal-o.

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2/3 of my post wasn't sarcasm. Only the first line was and you saw that so it didn't fail.

Your sarcasm fails to be humerous I mean. sure I understand you were trying to be sarcasticly funny.

Do I have to spell everything out?

Quote:

I'm guessing a skill doing 99999 AoE dmg on a 2 sec cast 1 sec recharge would not be overpowered because you could Dshot it or use Protective Spirit?

You actually hit across a good point here. 1AOE damage on a 2 sec cast 1 sec recharge is obviously under powered - so at what point would it be balanced? :]. Now, how do you difine that for aegis? This is why I do not believe aegis to be under, or over powered. I'm not really decided; however, it's not so powerful that I think I won't take something else for it.

Quote:

And I want pretty cape trim elektra ^ ^

Yeah okey but let's try not discuss that no more. I didn't mean to brag.

Franco talked about all his rank250 guilds he's lead and stuff. >.>. Kind of annoying, but anyway.

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Take your personal bragging fest/flamewar with Franco elsewhere. Thank you.

No offtopic in here.

You might of been better PM'ing that? I feel you have added another completely worthless post to the thread.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 19, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Yeah, you can quote in an order to make one look silly after ones posts have been changed in the manner described above. surprise, you're cal-o.

I know the one wasn't an answer to the other, and I think everyone else knows too. It just made me laugh when I read it like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

You actually hit across a good point here. 1AOE damage on a 2 sec cast 1 sec recharge is obviously under powered - so at what point would it be balanced? :]. Now, how do you difine that for aegis? This is why I do not believe aegis to be under, or over powered. I'm not really decided; however, it's not so powerful that I think I won't take something else for it.

I was talking about 99999, not 0,99999.
The point wasn't to compare that non-existing skill with aegis. The point was that whether a skill has counters or not doesn't make it any less overpowered or any more balanced.

elektra_lucia · Mar 19, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

I know what you were talking about, my point is, if

999999999 is over powered and

1 is under powered.

At what point does it become balanced?

Just like if they made aegis 10 sec cast, and 1/4 sec cast.

1/4 being over powered, 10 being under powered. At what point would it become balanced?

Bastian · Mar 19, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Power

Now Aegis vs Blinding, first of Blinding can be removed but so can Aegis. A flash bot could take Aegis in his bar, something like bsurge/ligorb,lightstrike,air atu,glyph,aegis,draw,rez. But Aegis chains really aren't that useful in HA, with all heavy aoe teams and usually only 2 meele in a team, you better off wasting 2 seconds and 15 energy casting something else, then a 50%block for 2 members of the enemy team, Aegis is not overpowered, just overrated in HA. So my question is, why do you want to waste 15 energy, 2 seconds casting a enchantment removal food to help you against 2 assassins or 2 thumpers? HA scrubs bring wards, aegis, channeling etc, really, learn how to monk and you should be fine without those 2. The objective of spamming heals on a ghostly to keep him alive for 4 minuts is over. I hope it comes back as much as the next one but until it does, people could try learning new ways of playing.

If we are talking about Heroe's Ascent with 6v6, I prefer Aegis. Why?

1. I don't want to commit to having 1 out of 4 character slots committed to Air Ele. B-Surge is now too expensive for a mesmer to take and use effectively. Also, it requires that I take up an elite slot for shutting down melee - something which I will mostly likely face in Halls, but may not be applicable depending. Running B-Flash, I am still committed to running an air ele and probable using 2 other skill slots for dual attunements. In either case, in 6v6 I like having 4 offensive players, utility isn't helping much (except mesmers). In 8v8 (which I prefer) this would be a different discussion.

2. Aegis chain is used in GvG and I find it very effective in both types of PvP. It really comes down to an energy management skill. The amount of pressure me and my team faces with Aegis as opposed to without it is definitely noticeable. That means, I spend less energy protting/healing = better energy management for critical situations.

3. Aegis is not as easy to remove as blind. Lets face it there is little to no enchantment removal in HA currently. Every team has condition removal. I do like blinding as a skill, I find it very useful, and yes it does pressure a monk's energy as well as his/her ability to catch spikes. However, Aegis is going to get removed much less frequently (if at all currently) than blind will. Additionally, if warriors aren't running clarity runes then they should be, and that in itself will help mitigate the length of time melee is blinded.

4. In kill count and HoH Aegis is exceptionally effective. Whereas, unless you have 1 target on your team being trained by all the melee on the other team and your target has an enchantment on him/her (because this is the only way B-Surge would be useful on a 1v2 situation) then I would much rather have aegis. Having a really good air ele on your team isn't going to be much good when you have what is typically at least 4 (2 per team) melee characters coming at you.

5. Although rending sweep is certainly seeing play, Melandru dervishes are awesome, and blinding isn't going to really do much good versus them.

Anways, yea wards suck except foes.

Franco Power · Mar 19, 2007, 06:28 PM // 18:28

1. I was doing a whole Warder vs Flashbot comparison, a warder isn't offensive either, so I'd prefeur a flashbot, there isn't any arguement here, it's a matter of opinions.

2. Agreed in GvG. I never said Aegis chains weren't good there.

3. lol finding decent players that know about clarity runes in HA, theres a 1/100 chance of that happening, you have your usual assassins with expose defenses, thumpers or avatar of grenths which is why I don't think Aegis is so useful. I do agree about the enchantment removal thou, specially because mesmers see no or littlet play in HA lately.

4. You imagining being ganked by 2 teams there, that clearly shows how HA sucks so much lately and that's why I havent been on in 5 weeks, but anyways, if you are being ganked by 2 teams, I think geting out of the middle and running out is the best thing to do, Aegis seems like the easiest option here, like I said before, doesn't mean Bsurge wouldn't get the job done, because let's see if your flashbot can blind 2 assassins and 4 are spiking you, then the damage of the whole spike is halved, same thing with Aegis ,50%to block, 0.5x4=2, (counting that the assassins don't have expose defenses), like I said before Aegis is the easy and much simple option, however a bsurge ele can fit a Aegis in his bar, which is only one of the examples why I think it provides much more utility then a warder.

5. And Aegis isn't going to do anything against Grenth either, listing counters doesn't mean a skill is bad, come on.

Agree with mostly everything you said thou. I was just trying to let elektra see that Blinding Surge is not a waste of elite, still waiting for his comment on why it is besides the bronze trim thing.

Peace~

Bastian · Mar 19, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Power

Agree with mostly everything you said thou. I was just trying to let elektra see that Blinding Surge is not a waste of elite, still waiting for his comment on why it is besides the bronze trim thing.

Peace~

Well, I definitely don't see it as a waste of an elite. 6v6 just doesn't give anyone any real options.

Patccmoi · Mar 19, 2007, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Just a little detail for that talk about Wards, why are you all talking about wards as if it had to be used specifically on a full earth ele warder that will have Unsteady Ground, glyphs and obsidian flame?

I'm a big fan of wards personally, especially in GvG actually because they allow to push and give a form of ground control (gives a safe zone for your backline/midline to push forward in while your melee goes pressuring their backline). But in GvG i'd never ever consider running a full warder. And just the same in HA right now...

We use Wards in nearly all our builds in HA currently, and all we simply do is put them on a Mind Blaster. You usually don't need your wards up 100% of the time (Aegis isn't either, not in the current HA anyway), and having around 10 earth is usually sufficient. A Mind Blaster can easily afford 10 in Earth (also allows to use Prismatic Armor for 70 base AL). Even a Paragon can (something like 14 Spear, 8 Leadership, 10 Earth, 9 Command for example with 1-2 adrenal shouts).

Atm Wards is what we use the most often instead of Aegis or Blind, and there's no problem in kill counts for it either, only people who, as you said, played fotm HA too much think that having wards means you have to sit down in them and don't have mobility. If you ever used wards in GvG (out of say an OFlame spike setup), you should know how to use them to actually enhance your mobility (or at least gain ground) and not the other way around.

Wards are currently at a disadvantage slightly because of all the fire eles, but it's still usually manageable.

elektra_lucia · Mar 19, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

I was doing a whole Warder vs Flashbot comparison, a warder isn't offensive either, so I'd prefeur a flashbot, there isn't any arguement here, it's a matter of opinions.

A warder can be offensive... Obviously the ward itself isn't offensive, but you can make -a- warder (dedicated character to warding) offensive and defensive. Also sticking to the topic title, blind vs block. Block is better. Why? You're using an ELITE to do a similar thing to what aegis does in a NON elite. You overlooked echo'd shockwave?

You'll be running the monks anyways, therefore, aegis chain is more viable.

There is ONE ward which blocks, and that's melee. Which really isn't that good, but once again - it's not an elite. So... Off topic (but kind of related) - I hit upon quite a good idea, sadly the players I had didn't seem to grasp it. This was at a time that sandstorm was being used a lot - stone sheath.

The Ele elite to turn all melee to earth damage. Then running mantra of earth on the casters. Since players then were using sandstorm anyways, you'd be able to pull off mantra of earth. I still think with the right build though, it could be used quite efficiently. I haven't really perfected the idea, maybe it wouldn't work.

Oh also, you started off implying that FoTM players wern't very intelligent; however, you play lame builds (was my point). You later brought up the guild argument, of how I joined HA guilds, even though my last five guilds have been pretty much top 50... so, uh yeah >.>. You were the one which brought up the bronze trim thing. Bragging about your guilds... I just mentioned I had one... Notice I said 'in reference to'? Clearly not.

To answer your question - why is it a waste of elite, because there are other elites which are better =).

Quote:

however a bsurge ele can fit a Aegis in his bar, which is only one of the examples why I think it provides much more utility then a warder.

Why do you have to run these anyways? You could run a much higher damage class... Why waste a profession on being defensive when you have 2 monks... Obviously you'd have some defense on other chars, but wasting a whole profession on being defensive, I.E blinding surge AND aegis? Is just silly, have you spent too long playing paraspike hunny?

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was just trying to let elektra see that Blinding Surge is not a waste of elite

Well you haven't done a good job at showing me this. I'd rather run a water ele and have aegis on the monks. Infact, I'd rather run an SS Necro with foes, aegis on the monk - than blinding surge ele.

Btw - is your hostility there because you found out I'm a guy or something? You used to be like ''elektra give me sex'' and now no love? I'm really hurt d00d.